Demystifying Revenue Modeling for SaaS Startups

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Imagine a scenario where you pitch your SaaS startup to potential investors. How would you prove to them that your company can build a profitable and sustainable business over time?

If revenue models weren’t included in your answer, your pitch isn’t as strong as it could be.

In a recent episode of Startup Success, we talked with Jonathan Cochrane, Director of Product Management at SaasOptics, and Debbie Cohen Rosler, Fractional CFO at Burkland, about how revenue modeling can convey the story of your business to investors and help you plan for the future.

What we talked about:

  • How revenue modeling helps SaaS startups
  • How seasonality complicates revenue modeling
  • The challenges of working with large enterprise customers
  • Revenue reporting pitfalls to avoid

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

This discussion with Jonathan Cochrane and Debbie Cohen Rosler was taken from our show Startup Success. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

Welcome to start up success, thepodcast for startup founders and investors. Here you'll find stories ofsuccess from others in the trenches. is they work to scale some of the fastestgrowing startups in the world stories that will help you in your own journeystart up. Success starts now hello. Thanks for joining us today we arediscussing SAS revenue and Arr modeling and why it is important and joining meis John Cockran from SAS optics and Debby Rostler, a fractional CFO fromBerkland, John and debby. Both have a lot of experience with predicting andmodeling SASS REVENUE FOR STARTUPS. John is currently, as we mentioned,with SAS optics and was a controller for several SASSTARTUPS and debby iscurrently a fractional CFO for five Berklyn sast startup clients. So thesetwo can really delve into this topic for us and give us a lot of greatinsight when why, how and stories and insights that they can share from theirpast work depit. Let's start with you, I mean why is revenue modeling soparticularly important for a SAS startup versus another startup yeah?Well, I would say you know kyaspect. Is that the recurrent nature of Sassrevenue is of significant value so as compared to other companies that focuson indivil visual transaction sales? TAST businesses generate a stream ofrecurring cashbulls from customers which can be retained over long periodsof time and for many companies. Those streams can be expanded and grown overtime as well th. Because of this recurring nature of the revenue thereare unique metrics to take into account when measuring the business and alsounique ways of modeling the cashbuls of the business that you need to take intoaccount. Oh interesting, so the recurring nature really plays a role.So John you've had a lot of experience with this. You know give the listenersome stories from your past on where...

...this you know, played an impact and whyit was so important for clients and companies that you worked with yeah. Sojust you know, building off what Deb said the recurring nature. It lendsitself to a keyword, predictability, so investors, the board, loves to be ableto take a look at your Mrr ar and say: okay, my Mrr this month is a milliondollars. So next month I know that I'm going to have a million dollars in thebank, but as a controller in my past life, I can't tell you how many timesthe board was expecting it to be a million dollars and it would come in asnine hundred and fifty thousand and then all of a sudden, it would fallback on my plate to explain. Why did that change? What's the you know, whatshifted from a million dollars ton hundred an fiftythosand? All of asudden, I would be caught scrambling with eight other members on my financeteam, trying to explain just a simple fluctuation and it just winds up beingreally really hard to do that so well. I know that we'll dive into some worsestories here as to you know, yeah why that is so hard, but that's the breadand butter of that. It's predictability and people expect MRR lends itself tohelping you plan for the future of the business, because you should be able tomotal out the future. Knowing those numbers got it that does sound like itadds a stress, but also you know. It could also add some insight for youdebi. What have you seen so so? One of the key factors of doing SASS revenuemodel is helping companies to determine their cash runway. So one of theinteresting aspects- assass businesses- is that there's a very wide range ofaproaches for how companies bill and collect further services. Somecompanies are able to build annually in advance for their services and that's afantastic model, because it essentially means that you're using customer cashto finance your start off as they're paying for the services before Youvedelivered anything to them. Compare, for example, that to I consumer productmanufacture that sources products internationally sells to large retailsa company like that would have long...

...timelines for sourcing raw materialpurchases than they do. The manufacturing, wearehouse and logisticstimelines to actually get paid by retail customers, many of whom try tostretch out their payment terms for really extended periods of time, and soconsidering that full time brame it can easily consider a product. Companiescan easily have their capital tied up for six or twelve months or even morebefore they get cashion in the door, and then you compare that against aSass model where you're actually getting paid before you even providethe service so which do you think, is a better model from a cashful standpoint,getting paid in advance before providing service or having cash tiedup for twelve months until you get a return. It's pretty clear. RIHT, yes,is a is a really really great model. That's a great benefit. I like the wayyou explain that yeah and then, and then, when you look at that wholeufront model, which you can see, though, is that there's a lot of variabilitybetween different SASS companies. So many sess companies are able to buildannuall advance t, but there are different models, so some will billquarterly or monthly upfront, and then there are some sess companies thataren't able to build in advance andstill bill after the fact, maybemonthly or quarterly. That's called billing in arrears and there's also areally wide range of collections. Time frames so some companies process theirtransactions, be a credit card, get paid right away. Other companies, youknow, build their customers and and can take fifeen ty six yoar even is tocollect. So when you look at these wide ranges of billing and collectionspractices in terms of whether you're building in advance or after the factand how long it takes to collect, which you'll see, is that the cash blow amongSass companies can very significantly and in two companies with the samelevels of Arr or annual recurring revenue can have widely different cashblows, and that's why rouknow revenue RMOVELING is really critical forbusinesses, because when you take into...

...account these different cash collectiontime frames, which Yoll see is that they have very different cash runways,and that will help the companies to understand on the time frames for beingable to raise their next round of capital. Well, I've never looked at itthat way where that the cash collection flow and time frames and thevariability can cause so much differences between sast startups, andthat must you know, cause it to be more difficult. So, John, to that point Imean: Do you have a you know, war story, or you know, example. You can share ofthat when you experience that with a client or a company that you areworking with yeah, I think I think the power well a good example of that wasin a prior life. I had rebuilt one of our companies financial models, so wewould build out a five year forecast and it's really hard. I'm Debby, I'msure you can appreciate it's near impossible to accurately predict years,two throug five, so you really kind of know what what your one is going to be,maybe if you're lucky, but in this meeting I remember sitting down in theCGEO at the time. You know O had this fancy model and we were assuming wewere.You know, let's just throw out a number, that we were going to grow fiftypercent this next year, but in the meeting the CEO went well. What? If,instead of growing fifty percent, we only grow forty percent, and so youknow our model at that point was sophisticated enough, that we could seethe ripple through effects to cash and all of a sudden, we realized if we onlygrow forty percent this year, we're going to run out of cash by Novemberand where, potentially, you know, we're not going to be able to hire thoseadditional ten to fifteen head count that we were planning for just bymissing. You know our forecast by about ten percent, so something that seems sosmall can have a really big ripple through effect, if you don't get itright. That was a good example of trying. You know it's deb. You arealluding to, even though a company has the same Arr. If you have differentbilling terms that ripples through to your cash, which then the worst casescenario. Now, thankfully, I'm early enough in my career that I have notbeen a part of a company that, let's...

...just take that example where wepotentially would have ran out of cash in November- you know we get to Julyand all of a sudden, we realize we need to scramble, because we got two tothree months to solve this. This leaky bucket of cash, but I've heard warstories from other cfos at different companies and they've told it. With aSOMBR attitude, saying I was the last person in the office calling you knowall of our creditors and saying look. I understand that we owe youfiftyhsandollars. I can only pay you ten hsand dollars if you can hold firmon the fiftytsand dollars, but then you can get in line and wait for thebankruptcy to go through and that's you know a worst case scenario and nowthere's the other side. If you grow to sixty percent, but the stakes arepretty high, forgetting those numbers right wow. I think that conveys reallywell the importance of doing this of going through th the exercise of themodeling, and you know why the direct impact it has on cash, which is socritical for Scaling Devi. Do you have an example like that of a company thatyou've worked with where their collections, you know, played a bigimpact on their cash runway yeah? I actually. I've had a SASS client thathad a seasonal business model and they really had some unique aspects to theway that their cash blows came into he business throughout the year. So thiscompany actually was selling new contracts throughout the year, butproduct launchhas actually only happened two times a year based on thecompany's seasonality. So while their contracted Arr was growing steadilythroughout the year, the implementations only happene twice peryear and as a result of the discrepancy, the company is actually tracking. TwoSeparate Air Armetrics, one of the metrics is contracted Arar and theothers live Arare, but but what you can see is that the company's only billingfor its services at the time of product, Lach and they're, going to be billingannually in advance so basicacl. What ends up happening is they're buildingup contracted revenue throughout the...

...year, but then there's sort of two bigchunky periods where they go alive. They send out their envoices and thensort of generally within thirty days, they're collecting paiments on those.So you basically see sort of twice a year where they have big cash, infloseand the rest of the year. There's really no cash inflows and therethey're sort of you know blieving cash throughout the year, and so you knowfor a company like this, you know correctly modeling. The timing of theseseasonal cashbulls are really critical for understanding their cash une way.You can't look at a company like this and say: What's there you know what'stheir Annuar, even their quarterly cash blow can get a full picture, becausethe really the monthly timing, in fact does matter and Fer. You know for acompany like that, you know understanding when those cash clothescome in and modeling that down to a monthly period makes you understand,you know, are you going to be in a period in between when the collectionscome in? Do you need to think about raising incremental capital to sort ofcover for those periods where you're not having like the cashwoll? That's aninteresting example, because you've got the SASS nature of the business coupledwith the seasonal aspect, makes it very difficult, wow interesting. I neverthought about those. Could both play a roll John, I'm going to put you on thespot here. Do you have something like that that you could share an example of,along with the SASS complexities of recurring revenue? You know there wassomething else in addition to it that made it particularly difficult yeah, Ithink the seasonality piece of it. You know I've been fortunate where a lot ofthe businesses that I've worked in have not had a ton of seasonality but toDeby's point yeah, making sure that t the seasonality is factored into.Everything is righ. I mean it's everything, but I have been a part ofseen examples where people did not take into account the delay between the daythat you send the envoice and when you're going to collect the cash andhow that is going to impact your cash runway. But I don't know how much wewant to dive into that. I know this I'm...

...like thinking out loud here. No, I meanthat's an interesting point and I think you know I could see where a lot ofpeople founders and their teams get that can trip them up. You know ECAyeah. I think I think it's yeah, so maybe ' just diving into that a littlebit. You know what one of the stories that I was talking about with old cothat I used to work with was when he came into the business and he took overthe financial model for everybody. They would assume that there's a couplethings going on. The CEO had budgeted ten additional head count for the nextyear, but he had just layered them all in assuming okay. Well, on January, oneI'm going to have ten head count. It didn't take into account that okay,throughout the year I'm going to layher in these different layer in the headcount, so I don't actually need to account for all that cash going out inJanuary. It's going to be a it'll take place over time, but the same piece wastrue with how they were modeling the revenue side of things. You can't justassume that on January, one all of a sudden, your airrs going to go from tenmillion to say fifteen millionr or whatever it might be. I think a lot oftime, a big thing that can trip companies up is they'll model out therearr and then their billings, and they assume that everything takes place inthe same month, but often there's a disconnect between the two of those. SoI build my client in January. Client might pay me thirty days later, fortyfive days later, sixty days later and if you're not accounting for that andhow you're modeling things out, you could find yourself in a reallydifficult position again. You know I feel, like I'm, the bearer of bad newson these Dow Watch out for all these tos. I think that's an excellent point,because just personally, I know how I'e paid bills to the companies that I use.You know with Berklin they'll send me an invoice. It might not get paid rightaway just because of the timing of things. So, if you're makingassumptions like that, you know and a bunch of different clients are payingat different times. It has a real impact. That's a painpoint for sureyeah Debi, I it sounds like you've got some personal experience. How cancompanies es deal with this exact problem? Oh yeah collections is areally critical thing among startups an what I found in particular is inworking with Darturs that are working with large enterprise. Customers areoften very surprised about how...

...challenging it can be to collect on theinvuses in a particular for this first en voice, because a lot of times whenstartups are selling to enterprises, there's a whole process to get you know,purchase, orders and and collect. You Know Pritches orvers approved thatthere's a lot of ibpriction to get that initially set up, and I have a clientthat you know is working with fortune. Five hundred ree anfortune one hundredcompanies, where the initial set up for that first invoice can take easilysixty to ninety days, and so, whereas you know initially, you might have beenforecasting to get COLEC, you know get a collection within thirty days. Thereality has been is been quite different from that a lot of times onceyou're in their system and th. You know a lot of these companies have verycomplicated under management systems that you have to get set up in and alot of times once you're set up. Your second end voice is much more timely,but the first in voice you got you got to take into account, particularlyworking with large enterprises. Those long time frames. Another thing I'veseen also particularly in the covid landscape, although this seems to beeasing up, is that initially, when covid hit a lot of large companies wereusing their purchasing power as a way to sort of flux and say you know, weneed to considver our cash, we're going to be? U Slower, and I had clients whohad thirty day payment terms with some otheir customers where their customersreached out to them and said you know what we're going to start paying youbased on Nidy da wow. That seems so unfair, it's crazyand. But what can you do? That seems to havelet up, but, but you know, it was shocking to me that these sort of largedeeppocketed companies, which theoretically have more options to beable the fun ther working capital, were squeezing the little guys the startups.But I did see that happening and there's companies that luckily, in thetime, firm of Covid a lot of those companies weresort of had the backstofof PPP loans and other things to help them get through those cash crunches.But it can be an issue. Were large.

Companies can really push on thestartups in terms of how long it takes for them to pay andstart of o Yo Li onyou know those logos and ou in terms of having you K, ow that large customersobviously help them build their business, its important to have them,but they don't always have the power to get those customers to pay as quicklyand then it impacts their entire model and what theyve planned wow. So so Iyou know as a general rule when I'm forecasting cash blows, even if thecompany's policy is to have thirty day collection terms, I often modelassuming sixty days just to be somewhat conservative so that I ont averagesomebody coming on time or earlier, and some maybe late, but at least that wayyou're not caught onaware. Oh that's a great kind of tip to pistifind out,because I'm sure seriously I mean I as you you know. If I was te start upfounder, I would want to take that approach right better to be surprisedwith finding that all your customers are paying on time and have your modelshow that then the other way interesting, any other painpoints. Youwant to Addruss debby yeah, I would say just overall among SAS companies. Oneof the one of the PAG points I see at the earliest stage is that well,companies are first getting set up. They don't really correctly measuretheir sasmetrics, such as a Arr, so many of these companies they start attheir initial customers, they're sort of getting cash blows and they'rereally looking at revenue only based on cash collections, but they're not doinganything to correctly measure revenue, cruel, CCOUNTING and then thenre alsonot correctly measuring their annual recurring revenue. So you know havingthis cash collections focus can make it really difficult for startups tocommunicate their business model and the company' story to investors. So,like you know, as wou're talking about before, one of the key benefitsbusiness modal benefits of a SASS company is the recurring nature of therevenue, and investors really want to...

...understand what portion of theirrevenue is. The recurring portion, a lot of companies will have initialsetup or one time, professional services, fees and that'll be part oftheir cash collections. But really you know tha. The part of the revenue thatprovides the most value is the recurring nature that he he revenue,that you're going to be getting a year after year after year, and you want tobe able to split out what portion of be revenue is recurring, and what doesthat look like on an annualyzed basis? You also need to be able to look at howthat revenue that recurring revenues growing over time. So how much newbusiness? Are you adding each month when you logos? What's your netretention of your existing business? So so, for example, how well are youretaining existing customers and what? What kind of job are you doing atdriving expansion revenue in that existing customer base over time? And alot of occasions you know one of the paintpoints I've seen is that I've seeninvestors express a lot of frustration at companies that aren't correctlytracking their airr metrics in a way that clearly breaks out this griwthover time and in the impact Os starnups is that they can lose credibility withinvestors because they're not demonstrating a good understanding oftheir business model, really the critical aspect of the business medelbeing that recurring revenue and then doing that they're, not youknow fully communicating the value of this revenue and therefore can end upunder valuing the company and what its prospects are and and what I've seen isthat this is something that really could significantly hurt a company'spotential to effectively raise venture capital and obviously that's critical,and you can see, on the investors point of view why they would want thatclarity, because you've very well explained the difference between therecurring portion versus the other. I mean John. Have you seen that as well?You know the yeah, they just they're, not doing it correctly, and then Ohyeah. It's so I would say the number one thing that we help you know,especially it's ass oppics. I think...

...that we help people with his thisconfusion that you know deb was alluding to where theyl mistakeinlyrecord. You know I build my customer. Twelve thousand dollars in January fora one year term and they'll be recording that as their revenue inJanuary, but really it needs to be stretched out and they don't have agood way to do that. So we help them on ot and you know Debyou were gettingread into a really good point. I remember you know I started my careerin pubket, countyng and so everything my whole world just revolved around gap,revenue and gap, compliant financial statements and everything that waslooking backward in history and then I joined a startup and they kept droppingthese terms, MRR and Arr and cohorts, and all these things I'd never heard ofbefore, because they're not they're. Really there are some standards, butit's not regulated like gap. Metrics are in. There can be some variation andI remember just being incredibly confused because all the investorswanted to hear about in the board wanted to hear about, and theexecutives want to hear about where these metrics to help predict where'sthe company going to be in one year, two, your three years from now. So there can be a ton of confusion, butthe stakes you know I remember sitting in an office and going back to the veryfirst example I had sittingo my office hat at a prior company and using thisexample of you know we had a million dollars of Emrour last month and sorevenue this month should be a million dollars. Plus our new business rightsounds easy, but it wasn't that there was variation in that and I had to tryand explain to the executives why that variation was taken place. But we weredealing with thousands of customers that we had to understand. What's themovement in each one of those customers and how does that factor in a view overall picture and they want a one sentence line or a two sentence line toexplain that, and I remember Tho Seeif, I looking at me saying if we can'texplain this simply and a couple sentences, our credibility to ourinvestors is just gone and they will find somebody else who can do thisbecause that's what the stakes are. You need to be able to explain: Hey. What'sthe movement across all of my customers and explain it simply, but it's notit's not a simple problem and there's a lot of confusion, and there are a lotof different terms, and there are a lot of things to account for the flip sideof that. If you get it right, it's...

...incredibly rewarding and incrediblyempowering and debbi. You are eluding. If you get that right, then all of asudden, you now have the metrics to back up the story that you're tellingabout your business, and now you have an incredible tolket to go and raisenew funds. If you want to to fuel the fuel the growth of Your Business,getting it right is: Is Everything ecause that you can plan effectively?You can raise funds effectively and then then it gets. Then you get intothe fun part of startups that everybody loves to talk about of you know. Thiscompany he's gone from series, a to series F and we're going to the moon,we're on a rocket ship, but you'll never get there. If you can't get thesebasics right, I really like how you phrase that John Get it right, becauseI think that's what you know we're all trying to accomplish here right isgiving some knowledge on how to do that and just T ese. This conversation isshown why that's so important, so devi getting it right. When do you start,then, because when you start is going to be critical to getting it right?Yeah I mean, I think you start from the very very beginning, so in terms ofdoing actual revenue modeling, I think you do it before you even have revenue,because really by building a revenue model, a company can validate that thecompany has ta potential to deliver on the growth objectives, and this revenuemodel also enables you to understand the company's unit economics. So youcan validate the pricing strategy and you can confirm that a company canbuild a profitable and sustainable business over time in terms of trackingair r metrics and doing correct revenue recognition. I think that also thatstarts on day one the first time that you begin making sales to customers.You want to get that from the beginning, because the sooner you have that thesinner you're able to communicate that story to investors and and understandyour businesss, I wol't be able to track and manage your business. So youknow I say this is something you do before you start thinking about thisbefore you even generate revenue, then you implement it from day. One ofrevenue generation makes perfect sense.

So that being said, John and Debbie, Iknow you both wrote an ebock about this. So John, you know to kind of build thatfoundation for our listeners. Can you tell us a little bit about the EbokYeah we just like we've been talking about on the podcast. This stuff iscomplicated and oftentimes. You just need somebody to help. You get startedor have the basics. You know like. I was saying earlier, going from my gapworld my regulated, very controlled environment to this new world ofanalytics and metrics, and how do we show where the business is going to go?You just need somebody to kind of give you a hey here that here's, the ABCs orhere's steps one through five on how to do this model or and here's what youneed to be thinking about. So that's that's a a little bit of what we diveinto in the EBOOK. You know we give you some high level bullet points of here,the things that you need to be thinking about here, a couple different waysthat you could tackle these problems, and hopefully that's that was one thingI always found valuable wash somebody who could just give me the high levelpoints. This is what you need to be thinking about. That's what we diveinto in the ebook excellent, so it kind of puts on the radar what you should bethinking about and questions you should be asking. You know your CFO or thecontroller. Whoever is working with you vpof finance, on your modeling yeah,exactly it. There are multiple ways to build a financial model for a company.Sometimes you want to do it from the tops down where tops down or a bottomsup model, and you may hear those terms tun around tops down, really means heywe're, starting at the very highest number that you can get to you know.What's what are we going to? Are we going from ten million to fifteenmillion on bottoms up is a little bit more gramular. You start at theindividual units. We want to sell a thousand units this year forfivedollars each and that then ripples up to that top line number and in theEbook we dive into. How can you set up a structured, and what do you need tobe thinking about with those two ways of bottling? Oh Great, so debbi youwould dress. Can you repeat the two...

...ways for our listeners? The twoapproaches you outline yeah. So so, basically, the EGO dives into twospecific approaches for SASS revenue. Modeling one is a topsdown approachwhich is fased on historical trendlines and Leverag in that to do futureprojections and the second approachis of bottoms up model, which is based onidentifying revenue drivers that can often include the sales of marketingfunnel product line and pricing. EXPECTA distribution of new customersbetween products- and you basically take these revenue models, buildassumptions out over time and these drivers and use that to build out a arevenue forecast. Excellent. So I know this Ebook is available both at theSASS optics website and the Brooklyn website. So, John, before we go, giveus a little info about SASS optics and your role there and how listeners canreach you if they want more information yeah, so my role, it ass, optics, Oure,director of product management and, like we were talking about earlier inhe past life, I was actually an operator a company. I was a acontroller at a business, so the great thing about SAS soptics is all thesoftworein solutions that were working on here. They provide solutions to allthe problems that I was dealing with when I was trying to pull togetherthese financial reports for executives and investors and SAS topics reallyhelps B to be SAS subscription businesses with their financialoperations. The exciting thing for me about SAS sopics and what we're able tohelp people with is, like I was saying in my old gap world there's a way topull together gap financial metrics, but then you also need a tool to helpyou deal with the nonfinancial metrics. How can you report on what yourbillings are going to be? How can you report in your air and your MRR Thererea lot of solutions on the market that will tell you hey? We can help you withair or Mrr, but it's not like we were talking about earlier. They just don'tquite get it right. The exciting thing about sasoptics is, I believe that wedo get it right and we do it all on a...

...single platform and it's one of the Rit's the reason I joined this company. I saw what we were doing and I saw thevalue- and I wish that I had this at my private company that wished that I hada single tool that I could go to to help me with my my analytic modeling myrevenue modeling and just have one tool to to do it all with, and so that'sreally what we, what we help people with. We help people with theirfinancial operations. Getting it right for B to be SSAs subscriptionbusinesses sounds like a great solution. Thank you and what's your Ourl, yourwebsite, you are eutl just saffs, optics, aoticscom, okay, great andexcellent, and then debbi. Would you mind sharing a little bit aboutBerkland and your role there yeah? So I work as a CFO consultant with Beroklynand I currently serve as fractional CFO for five sast startuffs. I've been withthe firm for about six years and I've had a lot of experience working withsat startups to build out their revenue and air our model. So some of thethings that we've been talking about today, I'm currently doing with severalof my clients, a you know. In real time, I'e spent my whole career working infinance. I initially started in investment, bhanking and private equityand then later moved into corporate financial planning and analysis, and soour Fim Brooklyn provides internal finance support to ventureback startups.We work with companies between the seed and serious CEA stages. The supportincludes parttime CFO support, as well as bookkeeping, accounting, tax and HR.We have a team of thirty CFOs and we actually support over three hundredstartups throughout the United States. If you want to get in touched with me,you can contact me at hello at Brookland, Associatecom and our websiteis Brooklyn Associates. It's Bur K, land, Associatecom and then any of theinformation that you want about the ebook. You can actually find onourBrooklyn website on. If you go to thehes Asthol kid section of ourwebsite, you'll be able to find our...

...ebook there thanks Debbie, you knowJohn and debby. It was great having you on the podcast. I think the listenersgot really good idea of why this is so important and why it's so unique andchallenging, but can also be you know, a real advantage for sast startups. Ifdone correctly. I think you both really outline that very well, and I thinkyour e book sounds like an excellent tool to get more information about thatand how to start, having those conversations that your start up tomake sure that you don't get caught in some of these stories that you sharedespecially Oujohn of so yeah worst case scenario. So I think this was a reallygreat conversation, definitely worth checking out SASS optics, what they'reoffering and the ebook in Berkelyn, and thank you both so much for your timetoday. This was great. You've been listening to start upsuccess to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. Like would you hear cap the number ofstars, you think the show deserves an apple podcast for more tools andresources for your own start up. SUCCESS CHECK OUT BERKELANASSOCIATESCOM! Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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